Jump to content


Photo

come on fish and game wardens really?


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 5x5

5x5

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 61 posts

Posted 11 August 2017 - 03:14 PM

I doubt they will be posting my question on the question and answer site California fish and game has because they cannot give me a defined answer of why I am wrong? They just want to say you're wrong and not give a reason why?? Which is pretty pathetic considering that fishing game has to uphold laws but can't give me a specific reason on why I am wrong? Or the laws that tell me that I'm wrong.

I can have a SideArm on me as long as I'm not hunting.

(h) Except as provided in subsection 353(g) of these regulations and in Section 4370 of the Fish and Game Code, archers may not possess a firearm while hunting in the field during any archery season, or while hunting during a general season under the provisions of an archery only tag.

These are the questions I asked fish and game.. they could not answer the question so they gave me a warden's email.. so all this is are emails back-and-forth between a Fish and game warden and myself. Let me know what you all think.


Carrie Wilson asked me to send this to you. we talked and I asked her to get a write up response back. she said she thought what I said was right but wanted me to send it to you.



I have a question about when fishing and game law determines someone to be hunting. A friend and I were having a discussion the other day. A question that we had was that if we were scouting and glassing and camping out before or during the season is that considered hunting? Because if glassing and scouting before or during the season is considered hunting wouldn't Fish and game be able to cite you before the season for hunting?? So when does hunting before or during the season occur if hiking back and camping out in a wilderness and glassing and scouting? I looked up the definition of hunting and scouting ." hunting is the practice of killing or trapping animals, or pursuing or tracking them with the intent of doing so". I told my friend that we were not hunting until we had the intent of killing. But up to the point of intent of killing we were scouting and camping which is not considered hunting but scouting am I right?.. scouting, (the action of gathering information about enemy forces or an area.) even though we do intend in the future when we find an animal we want to harvest we are not hunting until we intend to track and harvest that animal that we have found that suits our fancy?? And we are picky so we will not be going after every animal we see. When are we hunting??


and we will have weapons on us before and during the season. it takes days to get back into the wildernesses we are going into


Warden to me..


I am not sure where your definitions came from, dictionary? The correct place to looks for laws are in the law/code books, in this case fish and game code. Specifically the laws regulate "take" which have season, limits, license etc. "take" is defined in fish and game code 86: “86. “Take”


“Take” means hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill, or attempt to “hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill.


Being in the field activity pursuing wildlife with a weapon capable of killing it could be considered attempted take. The totality of your activity would be considered in determining if you're cited. I would recommend you don't do everything you would normally do when hunting, just short of pulling the trigger, and believe that somehow you are not going to be cited.


Think of the license requirement if an officer contacts you in the field doing all activists consistent with hunting as well as having the method for take, you'll likely be cited.


Hope this helps


Me..


For the last 10 years I have packed into the wilderness 5 miles back 2 days before the season with my rifle binoculars and spotting scope and looked at the county for game. Is this "take"?. The response I got made me feel like what I've been doing is illegal? if before the season. Is what I just explained illegal? Or "Take"?


Warden to me..

Call me #


Me..


thanks for trying to help. My last question was pretty straightforward if you do not know the answer to that question, could you please give me the contact information for someone who will give me a written response for my last question?

I should be able to get a written response from the Department of Fish and wildlife that gives a defined yes or no on my first and second question I wrote up and emailed. The Department of Fish and wildlife are the ones that enforce the law so they should be able to answer the question



Warden to me..

My first answer detailed what the law describes as take. I say again, as I did originally, it depends on totality of the circumstances, in other words there are variables to consider. The variables could be, is the weapon loaded? Cased? Is ammo readily accessible? When glassing, do you then range find too? Do you look at closed season animals through a scoped rifle? I think you can see how so much of this can be indicative of potential attempted take. It is certainly not unlawful to scout, its not only common but encouraged for safety and success.


The overall point is too clearly distinguish that you efforts are limited to scouting for the sake of future hunt rather than attempting to take.


Thanks


Me..

OK so if all the variables you could possibly think of where not suspect of doing anything wrong you would not consider me to be hunting or "take" right? If before the season with my rifle?


Warden to me..

Correct. If you clearly are not involved in FGC 86-take, you would not be cited for it.



Me..

Great thank you very much


Me..

Hey sorry for all the emails but my friend and I got together this weekend because we are planing a hunting trip soon. We went over these questions and had some more. Would my last question be considered incorrect if during the season?


Me..

Hey Chris we've got some more questions I'd like to email you before we go hunting, but if you don't want to answer them could you give me the email address for someone who will?


Me..

OK so I’m guessing since I didn’t get my questions answered "take “or Hunting is not considered different before or during the season. Take or hunting is the same weather the season is open or closed.



So Fishing game wardens cannot determine someone is hunting based on whether a season is open or close. They have to base that decision on if that person is hunting or involved in "take"
So If a fish and game warden would not give you a ticket when the season is closed for hunting he cannot give you a ticket in the exact same situation when the season is open.




So the examples and questions I am giving next are 100% legal before or during the season because I am not hunting or involved in take. So don’t say that there are variables involved, the variables are that no hunting is taking place. “Take” means hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill, or attempt to “hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill.




is "take" or hunting any different with archery equipment? I'm guessing not any different.. so when we are packing into the wilderness, and setting up camp in the field 5 miles back with our archery equipment to hunt with and my tent food and gear 2 days before the opener of archery season, my friend and I are 100% legal as long as "Take" or hunting does not take place






So in the last situation I just gave, this means I am allowed to have a side arm on me because I am 100% legal and not involved in "take" or hunting before the archery season. I would have to be in violation of "Take" or hunting before I am in violation of archery hunting with a side arm on me before the archery season starts. This does not change when the season is open or closed "Take" or hunting has to take place first.( Section 4370 of the Fish and Game Code, archers may not possess a firearm while hunting in the field during any archery season, or while hunting during a general season under the provisions of an archery only tag.)…key word HUNTING.


So when packing 5 miles back, cooking food or sleeping in my ten or taking a s**t in the middle night in the woods I can have my side arm with me. The law says hunting in the field not, IN the field.





I would always have to be involved in "take" or hunting before I am in violation of hunting in the field with a side arm with archery equipment.. And this does not change whether the season is closed or open.



Packing back into a wilderness before the season and packing out after the season has started is 100% legal with a side arm during the archery season. If it is OK to do before the season it is OK to do during the season. I would always have to be involved in hunting or take first before I am in violation of 4370 of fish and game code.



· (h) Except as provided in subsection 353(g) of these regulations and in Section 4370 of the Fish and Game Code, archers may not possess a firearm while hunting in the field during any archery season, or while hunting during a general season under the provisions of an archery only tag.




when is take over? after I fill out my deer tag?


Warden to me..


Not correct. You will be cited for having a firearm in the field during an open archery only, season absolutely no doubt. You are building connections and bridges that I didn't make for you.
You make too many leaps and conclusions about law and legal language. If you need further clarification perhaps an attorney for hire can better explain laws to you.


It is far too difficult to have a dialogue via text writing especially when the question constantly change/evolve the and the answers are misinterpreted, which is why I asked you to call me weeks ago.


If you need further assistance from me please call



#2 Rod

Rod

    BTC Addict

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,112 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rose Lodge to Curtin, Oregon

Posted 12 August 2017 - 02:06 PM

Just remember, you are dealing with provisions of the law here.  What is right, wrong, and what is justice, have no bearing on, or connection with, the law.

 

 

 

.  .  .  .  (kinda sickening)


New ideas don't take hold because people become convinced of them, they take hold because the people believing the old stuff die.

#3 meatbuck

meatbuck

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 279 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:behind the crosshairs
  • Interests:Putting meat in the freezer

Posted 14 August 2017 - 10:02 AM

Bottom line is will the jury believe you or the warden who sites you for carrying a pistol during an open archery season. Regardless of how you look at it or interpret the laws or regulations.

Seems to me the warden you emailed didn't want to put his explanation in writing because if he was wrong you could use it against him.

Suggestion, record your call to him.

#4 goph707

goph707

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern Cali

Posted 15 August 2017 - 09:12 PM

hmmmm....To me the law is pretty cut and dry...you cannot have a firearm with you during archery season while archery hunting or in possession of an archery only tag. Makes sense.

Look at it from the Warden's perspective, they are used to dealing with dirt bags trying to get one over on them. ( no I am not calling you a dirt bag ) to the Warden and myself included it sounds like you are looking for a loophole to bend the law.... I could be wrong. I'd never thought I'd say this, but I kinda agree with the Warden. Good luck! let us know how it turns out.



#5 5x5

5x5

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 61 posts

Posted 16 August 2017 - 06:31 AM

The rest of the conversation between the warden and I

Me.

Wow so I can be back there coyote hunting with a long distance rifle and be perfectly legal during the archery deer season. But if I am back there chilling in camp with my SideArm for protection during the archery season I will be cited if I have my bow, that sounds retarded
 

Sorry you have to uphold those types of laws 

Warden to me..

Not exactly but again those are your applications and interpretations of how the law is or would be applied.  Wildlife officers go through over seven months of classroom training, three months of field training and on the job experience learning and understanding how to apply the laws to various circumstances as well as investigating and determining when someone is being deceptive.  You are safest to err on the side of caution by sticking with the conservative letter of the law and leave any doubt or potential for violation out of the equation.  

 

Me..

In my mind there is no doubt that I will NOT be shooting a deer with my SideArm during the archery season. The reason the law was created was so people do not kill a deer during the archery season with a firearm. If I am not going to do that I am not breaking the law, that would make sense.

Someone that has gone through months of schooling should be able to determine that I am not hunting with that firearm and I should not be cited for hunting with it.  But I guess I'm wrong 

 

Warden to me..

Perhaps you are not the person who would do that, but there are people who would, and most laws exist to protect from the people who would do things that honest people wouldn't imagine. However we are all held to the standard and accountability to obey all laws and while a trained officer may use their discretion and not cite you for the firearm, the letter of the law still prohibits possession and you must know that you could potentially be cited. 

 

Me..

yep. Hopefully if I ever run into some warden out there they can think outside the box.

 

 

 

 

 

Just to repeat what was just said above between the warden and I. this law was created to make sure someone does not shoot a deer with a firearm during the archery season. If wardens go through months of training (said by the warden above) on how to interpret the law they should be able to recognize when someone is actually hunting with a firearm. but unfortunately not many of them can think outside the box and will just act like robots and screw over good people that are not actually doing anything wrong, just protecting their lives The best way humanly possible with a Side arm.

 

California is something else. You can't have a fire arm on you to protect your life anywhere outside your home if you don't have a concealed weapons permit. And when I am out in the middle of nowhere I am not allowed to have a SideArm on me because I am bow hunting .. come on.



#6 big bad hunter

big bad hunter

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 661 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Clearlake ca.
  • Interests:hunting ,fishing ,blackpowder, rendezvous ,camping ,playing with dog ,hiking in mountains , anything outdoors in mountains except SNOW and LOVE NASCAR

Posted 16 August 2017 - 05:29 PM

game wardens suk big nads 

when in camp , keep bow in truck or tent but fast access 

then you can carry a pistol or set it on table . 

as far as scouting with binocs and pistol , then hundreds or thousands should be given poaching tickets almost every weekend in national forest cause that many visit while viewing animals and birds but open carry for protection and dont have tags . 

the wardens out of yreka i've talked to are bad . you are guilty of something and they gonna bust you just to find out what



#7 Hooptd

Hooptd

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 62 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Anderson, Ca
  • Interests:Hunting, fishing, family, fantasy football

Posted 16 August 2017 - 05:42 PM

Very interesting topic. I myself have a disability and I have a concealed carry permit. I carry a Ruger LCR which is a snub nose 38 special revolver. Are they saying that If I'm bow hunting and carrying that for personal protection, that they think I'm going to try and shoot a deer with that gun?

Because of my disability, I'm able to use a crossbow during archery season and I assure anyone, the archery equipment is far more reliable and accurate than the pistol.  My 14 year old daughter will be accompanying me at times and unfortunately since there are  some seriously messed up people out there, I don't feel comfortable leaving her safety to the whims of chance.

I'm hoping a warden would be able to think reasonably on this one. And it should be the same really for anyone who wished to carry a sidearm for personal protection.



#8 meatbuck

meatbuck

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 279 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:behind the crosshairs
  • Interests:Putting meat in the freezer

Posted 16 August 2017 - 08:31 PM

Sure wish I'd had a pistol when that lion was following me around all weekend... Archery season or not

#9 Hooptd

Hooptd

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 62 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Anderson, Ca
  • Interests:Hunting, fishing, family, fantasy football

Posted 16 August 2017 - 08:44 PM

I'll bet. I wish you had one too



#10 maddog

maddog

    BTC Addict

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,438 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:kelseyville california
  • Interests:Hunting and Fishing thats all there is !!!!!!!!!!

Posted 17 August 2017 - 12:58 PM

that is why i carry a shotgun when out scouting for bucks as quail are on the menu get my drift !!!!


MADDOG RULES LOL and Make the first shot count,Blacktail Identification expert LOL and population control professionalist LOL

#11 RGA 4X4

RGA 4X4

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 665 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Red Bluff, Ca

Posted 24 August 2017 - 11:08 AM

First off, I don't like this law any more than the next guy. I do have to agree though that you seem to really be stretching and trying to find a loophole around the law. You were pretty vague on whether you would be carrying your archery equipment while scouting and wearing a side arm. You mentioned something along the lines of not gong into pursuit until you found what you wanted to go after. Say you're sitting, glassing, and the buck of your lifetime walks out below you. He has no idea that you are there and is 30 yards broadside. Your bow is sitting there next to you. From what i'm hearing you would let him walk because you are wearing a sidearm? Or hope he stays still until you can go to your tent to put it away? Ehh, I'm not too sure you'd sell a warden on that and I can't blame them. Bottom line is that it is the law and if you break it you will be cited. I'm not a warden and don't personally know any so I have no bias. To me it is no different than when California was one of the first states to impose a seat belt law. People complained that it was their choice whether to wear one or not and shouldn't be cited. The obvious answer then was, if you don't like the law then move to somewhere that doesn't have that law. The same can be implied to the side arm law while bowhunting. I know a few guys who will pack pistols while archery hunting. These guys are also content with the trade off that if they are caught then they will be cited and are prepared to deal with that consequence in exchange for peace of mind. Seems ok to me. Pack one if you want. Just be prepared to be cited when you are caught.



#12 ropes

ropes

    BTC Addict

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,830 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hollis, Ak
  • Interests:Hunten and Fishen

Posted 24 August 2017 - 12:02 PM

I think some states out east have the no sidearm law .... during bow hunting ... even stricter than the Cali law.

 

I do know of one bowhunter that got busted for having pistol ammo in his glove box .. also anoter bowhunter that shot a deer with a pistol and then stuck an arrow in the bullet wound, busted ... mid western states somewhere but can't remember. 



#13 maddog

maddog

    BTC Addict

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,438 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:kelseyville california
  • Interests:Hunting and Fishing thats all there is !!!!!!!!!!

Posted 25 August 2017 - 03:56 PM

thats why I hunt quail while I scout for bucks same time even though I dont do much scouting but when I do i carry a shot gun, its so much easier with wardens as all they see is quail loads and nothing in my shotgun as its single shot and I do not bow hunt so they dont think I'm trying to cheat.and it gives me something to protect myself in case of a cat stalking me . I have been checked alot in the past and never had a problem with the wardens checking me out or my jeep and after all done they would always say good luck on the quail and scouting for your bucks because i was always up front with them on what I was doing.


MADDOG RULES LOL and Make the first shot count,Blacktail Identification expert LOL and population control professionalist LOL

#14 meatbuck

meatbuck

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 279 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:behind the crosshairs
  • Interests:Putting meat in the freezer

Posted 26 August 2017 - 06:09 PM

Attached File  IMG_20170826_111538.jpg   212.08KB   3 downloads

Had another cat talking from the brush this morning. 20 yards or less but retreated after a couple rocks in his direction.... I'm about ready to get a sidearm.

Crested the ridge to find these springtime tracks everywhere.

#15 Kirk

Kirk

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 59 posts

Posted 28 September 2017 - 08:46 AM

All I can say is the wardens act as if Guilty until proven innocent. I'd keep the pistol in my tent while bow hunting, and if they gave me any shit I'd let them write a ticket. Then I'd show up in court which makes that Warden have to show with you. If you legally shot a buck with a arrow, it could be proven. if you did not shoot the buck with a pistol it could be proven. The warden has to visually SEE you shoot that gun, and prove it's a bullet that killed the Animal. I think since you came this far and feel you are in the right, then keep that pistol with you at all times. And my defense would be that you can always argue the law if your ALIVE! but if your dead from being mauled by a Cat or bear, or POT grower Cartel, then there is nothing! I'd argue the POT problem as well, I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to find a illegal grow in a area your hunting. Take pictures!! Maybe a good idea as well to ask your Warden to venture up in the woods with you on one of your trips. Get to know the wardens because they could also help in getting back to their brass about the Cartel problem. Many different ways to go about it. But I must say I respect you for standing for your rights brother, fight the good fight and Rock on!



#16 Kirk

Kirk

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 59 posts

Posted 28 September 2017 - 08:52 AM

One more thing. Thank You for standing for ALL of OUR rights!



#17 meatbuck

meatbuck

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 279 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:behind the crosshairs
  • Interests:Putting meat in the freezer

Posted 28 September 2017 - 10:41 AM

Saw a 2017 California blacktail hunt on YouTube yesterday where a guy carries while on an archery hunt. He actually harvested a buck and does the recovery with sidearm in plain view.

#18 big bad hunter

big bad hunter

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 661 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Clearlake ca.
  • Interests:hunting ,fishing ,blackpowder, rendezvous ,camping ,playing with dog ,hiking in mountains , anything outdoors in mountains except SNOW and LOVE NASCAR

Posted 28 September 2017 - 11:24 AM

check date you tube published 

during general season you can use a bow to harvest and still carry a pistol , and a rifle if you want 






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users